The discussion below about developers becoming “game gods” is an important one, I think. I really haven’t weighed in one side or the other because I’ve never really followed a developer in that way, save Shigeru Miyamoto.
If I were to say one thing though, it’s that game gods aren’t so bad as long as there’s a range of them out there representing a variety of tastes, and whose games are truly advancing the medium forward.
As it stands now we have people like CliffyB, Itagaki and Kojima. Unfortunately, each of these fine fellows create games that aren’t really all that original or imaginative, and their personalities and followings have, ironically, had more of an impact on gaming (in this case negatively) than their creations ever will. That’s the bad thing about so-called “gaming gods” in this era.
In any event, Jade Raymond should call me. I guess that’s two things.
The problem is the issue is brought up as a strawman.
It’s ad hominem, basically painting your debate opponents as blind fanboys at the outset before one word is said. So any “defense of the Game Gods” is just that, instead of skeptical criticism of the arguments merits. Like all the Sakamoto nonsense. I really don’t think there are huge pockets of Sakamoto fanboys that jump in front of bullets for him. Sure, a few forum threads exist, where they really like him and question why he’s become the target of Malstrom’s crusade to roll back the clock, but the main flaws with the whole diatribe against him are that he doesn’t act like a rock star, he’s got a lot of talent, and not just in Metroid (Friend Collection for the DS is one of the games he produced as head of the group, and it’s around 3.5 million in Japan right now), and more or less he’s handling Metroid as a director since Retro is doing DKC now.
But this has somehow turned into a dastardly plot by Sakamoto to strip Retro of all their favor and make them sell ice cream door to door so he can create his artistic vision of the One True Game and live in a lavish palace next to John Romero and Tomonobu Itagaki in he pantheon of egotistical game development.
The problem is, that doesn’t reflect reality. He’s never been antagonistic or egotistical. He went to Team Ninja because RETRO said that Metroid Prime 3 would be the end to their trilogy and wanted to move on to other projects, lest they get bored with making one thing for too long and see the quality drop, which it would. So they’re trying something new, which is a 3D Action game with roots to Super Metroid and Ninja Gaiden, adn hopefully that will helped Metroid flagging sales in Japan where they don’t like FPS too much and probably weren’t happy with the series being thrown into the genres (FPA genre distinction or not.) If anything Malstrom should be happy that they are trying to help a game not just be popular in America.
But no, cue the sturm and angst over Game Gods and Sakamoto as a devil and images of him snatching the series back from the poor Texas developer (Think Malstrom living in Texas might be why he’s biased towards them) and all the fans he agrees with who rage and rage some more and the demonization of fans who like the retro direction of the game, cutscenes or not.
I’m starting to think Malstrom is just another hardcore gamer, because he certainly ACTS like one whenever he doesn’t get his way.
That’s a big misunderstanding of what Malstrom is trying to say. The problem with all the Sakamoto worshipers is that they were saying the game was going to be great simply because of him and that he could do no wrong. Which is a lot different from saying Epic Mickey has a chance of being good because Warren Spector, a guy who has a pretty good track record is behind it.
It’s really the whole Sakamoto can do anything and it will be good because he worked on every other Metroid game. That whole vision of his which looks to be different from what most gamers got from the game. The fact is, Metroid Prime put the series on the map. Even as Super Metroid is revered on the internet, it was never considered one of Nintendo’s big franchise until they launched Prime.
It doesn’t mean the game will not be good. The recent gameplay videos certainly give a little more hope (though they already show quite a few things wrong with the game), but it all depends on how the game comes together in the end. Until then, it’s ridiculous to use Sakamoto as a reason for a game to be good, which is what people are doing. He’s a far cry from Miyamoto’s track record and even he has made quite a few mistakes.
The problem is using insane fanboys to bolster your position.
Yeah, there are insane Metroid fanboys. So? That’s a strawman. You can find psychos of all sorts on the internet, including psychotic retrogamers that just whine that “games are never as good as they remember.” Like their nostalgia is worth something.
“That’s a big misunderstanding of what Malstrom is trying to say. The problem with all the Sakamoto worshipers is that they were saying the game was going to be great simply because of him and that he could do no wrong. Which is a lot different from saying Epic Mickey has a chance of being good because Warren Spector, a guy who has a pretty good track record is behind it.”
Warren Specter has a good track record with a few wild missteps, like Deus Ex and its sequel, two overblown games with endless cutscenes and a story nobody cared about. Yet he’s considered a good developer (Dare I say a Game God) and we should expect great things of Epic Mickey because his is a great developer who made some of Malstrom’s favorite games.
But how do we know that’s not what the “Sakamoto worshippers” are doing, just saying as a director he’s got a pretty good track record? Why does their saying the game has a good chance of being good a problem? Why is it considered “insanity?” Why is this same argument considered “Sakamoto worship?” (Please lose the insulting title. It’s more strawmen, seriously. Lose the characterization and we can have serious debate. Otherwise it’s just seeing who can insult the other more, and that’s not productive.)
Besides, the Prime games are good because both Retro and Sakamoto were involved. You can’t just credit either one with all the glory. Both had a hand and both are good at their jobs.
Besides, nobody has EVER said the new Metroid is only good because ZOMG Sakamoto. It’s a nice throwback to Super Metroid, something the Japanese fans have been wanting for a long time ever since the series went to a first person game, which is why the much-maligned Metroid Fusion sold more than all three Metroid Prime games combined in Japan. Nintendo wants the game to be popular everywhere, not just Japan or America. And this is a step to try and fix that problem, and all the retarded pre-criticism and psychic prediction is just distracting hardcore fan bitching (Ironically from Malstrom) who want to see the game be a niche America-Only FPA forever. It must be made to appeal to more people Either just America or just Japan. and any step towards that goal, even missteps, is better than letting it wither on the vine while hardcores try to influence the game design into its own mediocrity.
And That’s all there really is to say on the matter. Leave Sakamoto alone, not because he’s a “Game God” or because he “doesn’t deserve it” but because it’s trying to build him up as a “rockstar” game developer via insane internet people, of which he isn’t and doesn’t act like, and then using that as some kind of slam against the game. And all the hardcore drama about cutscenes is pretty goddamn tired AND disingenuous when they reveal their favorite games and lo and behold, cutscenes a-plenty.
The “Game God” is not really about the individualities themselves, but about how people treat them. It really is like the “sacred cow” – something which cannot be tampered with, or criticized, for fear of public outcry.
It is not about a game developer having an opulent life style, nor it has anything to do about doing good or bad games. It has only to do with people who idolatrize other people and its consequences.
You could say this is “bad” for the same reason extreme religion is “bad”: you can’t reason with people like that on that subject.
“Besides, nobody has EVER said the new Metroid is only good because ZOMG Sakamoto.”
If you look at most gonintendo threads soon after it was announced, you’ll find more than one example of that.
Again I want to stress there is nothing wrong about saying a game has a chance to be good because a certain developer is behind it, but saying a developer can do no wrong (which is what a lot of people who defended the game were saying) is the real problem.
“And this is a step to try and fix that problem, and all the retarded pre-criticism and psychic prediction is just distracting hardcore fan bitching (Ironically from Malstrom) who want to see the game be a niche America-Only FPA forever.”
Malstrom actually does want to see another 2d Metroid, a real sequel to Super Metroid. I do know others want that though. I myself don’t like the 2d games, but I’m not against them.
When Other M was announced, Sakamoto was made front and center. While it started by yes, some insane Fusion fanboys, when people started rejecting the idea of a feminine story in the game because it wasn’t what Metroid was all about, other people started defending the game and getting behind Sakamoto. It’s like people had no right to criticize Other M at all, because Sakamoto has always been behind it.
What Malstrom doesn’t like about Sakamoto is the whole creativity thing, but that’s another subject. Oh and it doesn’t help that Sakamoto sometimes acts like the Prime series wasn’t real Metroid games or doesn’t even exist. I understand the whole Japanese/American thing but still, dismissing games that were more popular than his is silly.
The thing about the cutscenes is that they were used differently in the past. They showed you the world and somewhat advanced the story but weren’t everywhere during levels like say Uncharted where sometimes you’ll get a cutscene, push up on the control stick for ten seconds and then get another one. That thankfully doesn’t happen to often but there is a difference when the cutscenes are used to make a specific story. It ties you to one path only. In a game like Wing Commander, you will get a cutscene to brief you on a mission, but you won’t necessarily see your character specifically and it doesn’t put you on a single path for the level.
Finally, I’d like to ask, what makes you so angry about Malstrom? I’m simply curious whether it’s because of his personality in general or a certain subject matter like the whole Other M debate.
“The problem is using insane fanboys to bolster your position.
Yeah, there are insane Metroid fanboys. So? That’s a strawman.”
So, again, you are bothered by the guise (and in the way you interpret it).
Are you saying that Malstrom used the Metroid fanboys as an argument to say that the game will not be good?
And now, completely aside, something that I wanted to ask the first time I heard you talk about other M. Jeff, why should you be bothered by people not expecting much from a game? When the game comes out, you can play it as much as you want. Even the people who were not expecting much, might try it and enjoy it. Why should their low-hopes bother you? There are many who do not like to be hyped.
And why do you defend Sakamoto so much?
I’ll wait for your accusations of strawman and ad hominen. As if that meant something. If someone says that “the earth has billions of years, stupid!”, you pointing out that he is insulting someone says nothing about the trueness of the sentence (and will not had much, you were not the only one noticing he is insulting someone).
The irony of this entire discussion is that Malstrom *is* an insane fanboy influenced to a ridiculous degree by NES and SNES era gaming and it colors, distorts and inflects everything he says, thus rendering much of what he brings to the table meaningless or unhinged. (His vendetta /grudge (that’s what it is) against Other M has long since jumped the shark and has booked a nice rubber room at his local mental hospital. I mean he hasn’t even played it or even put hands on it and it was automatically cast into the outer darkness–you don’t find something seriously wrong w/ that mentality?? I mean the guy was ranting and raving not too long ago that a gameplay teaser wasn’t a gameplay teaser even though it was a gameplay teaser–that’s shark-jumping of a galactic magnitude.)
Anyway, halstrom had a lot of good things to say once (almost all on the business end–his critique of games themselves being almost entirely overwrought), but he’s long since bought into his own hype and has ceased to be anything more than the crazy uncle in the gaming punditry attic.
“If you look at most gonintendo threads soon after it was announced, you’ll find more than one example of that.”
So? More fanboy strawmen?
“something defending the ‘right kind of cutscenes’”
Whatever, cutscenes are cutscenes, friend.
“Finally, I’d like to ask, what makes you so angry about Malstrom?”
Being a vigorous arguer don’t mean I’m angry at him. I’m angry at his stupidity and posturing. I don’t care what his manufactured identity is.
“Oh and it doesn’t help that Sakamoto sometimes acts like the Prime series wasn’t real Metroid games or doesn’t even exist. ”
If he hopes the games to be popular in Japan he better not mention Metroid Prime at all. Not knocking the games, they’re great, but they failed in Japan. Period. Something new is needed. Also, they started to slide down in popularity here as well. Time for a change. Other M could succeed for fail, but something new must be tried or the series will die as a niche American shooter.
“Are you saying that Malstrom used the Metroid fanboys as an argument to say that the game will not be good?”
Yes. All he did was just troll a few forums and find a few nutcases. And? What does that prove? Sakamoto’s a Game God? What?
I haven’t heard as much about Richard Garriott before I read all about his entire life on Malstrom’s site. I’ve never heard a cross word about him or about Ultima at all on his site, and what games did fail, he blamed EA. Does this make Richard Garriott a Game God, and does Malstrom have Game God like behavior because of it? We’re talking about a guy so egotistical he puts himself in his games and Malstrom thinks that’s soooo coool~~~ and puts youtubes of the guy in space on his site. And that goes double for Sid Meier, who puts his OWN NAME in possessive form on his games (Sid Meier’s this, Sid Meier’s that)
Explain this. Why should I care what he says about Game Gods when he has one himself? Why should anybody take that seriously? If its bad, why does he do it? Or do those people just not have the right “Game Gods” to worship? And if so, which are the right ones? I want to disseminate the list to all relevant forums.
“And now, completely aside, something that I wanted to ask the first time I heard you talk about other M. Jeff, why should you be bothered by people not expecting much from a game?”
Oh I don’t care what he thinks of the game. I just hate idiotic speculation and how it ruins discussions on forums of the people who are looking forward to it. at some point somebody who went to Malstrom’s site and thinks he found some intelligent insight spouts all that stuff nonstop and won’t leave.
When I’m trying to sleep, I care that a cat outside is making noise, so I throw a shoe at it. Malstrom is that cat.
“And why do you defend Sakamoto so much? ”
Because he’s just a human being and I don’t like to see guys like that get eviscerated by hardcore fans on the internet who label him as some sort of Rockstar developer or Game God. (LOL Irony)
“I’ll wait for your accusations of strawman and ad hominen. As if that meant something. ”
It does mean something. Strawmen is attacking somebody or an idea by using an extreme example in place of the idea and hitting it instead. Malstrom does this a lot. He’ll find some psycho fan and use that as an example, and use that to criticize. Ad hominem is just what it means. He’s attacking the character of Sakamoto, not even the real one, the one envisioned by his psycho strawman, instead of attacking the game or the principles, which seem to be in line with Super Metroid, if with a few more lame cutscenes, which seem to be in everybody’s favorite games, apparently.
“If someone says that “the earth has billions of years, stupid!”, you pointing out that he is insulting someone says nothing about the trueness of the sentence (and will not had much, you were not the only one noticing he is insulting someone).”
That’s not ad hominem, you moron. Ad hominem is where you just attack the character instead of the argument, you filthy preener. Like, if I were to just say “this guy’s an idiot, LOL!”, that would be ad hominem, you greasy hobo. It’s because I’m not talking about the point, but rather insulting the person and hoping people will just attack the character instead, you puke stain. But since insulting somebody after telling the truth is fine, jackass, I’ll be sure to do it more often.
Besides, it’s not like what Malstrom says will be big hits actually become big hits, and things he says will fail actually fail.
Reginleiv was supposed to be big in Japan. Wrong.
Monster Hunter was supposed to be huge here. wrong.
Obama will lose the election. Wrong.
Starcraft II was supposed to fail. Said this until he saw it might be huge so he changed his mind.
So him being right or wrong about Other M is immaterial, because he seems to predict like Pachter does. Dartboard and personal bias. But he fails at it because Pachter gets paid for his idiocy. Nobody pays poor Malstrom. He just has delusions of grandeur of Nintendo employees visiting his site and listening to what he says.
But yes, I’m looking forward to Other M, because it looks like Super Metroid, which I’ve always wanted a sequel to. Do I care that you don’t? No. do I care that Malstrom doesn’t? No. (He seems to care that a few psycho fans do, though. Maybe if he lectures them about content making sense they’ll come around. Maybe he should start with the Ultima game that takes place on Mars in the 1800′s. That oughta do it.)
So I’m done on the subject. hopefully I won’t have to hear about Richard Garriott again from Malstrom. I mean who cares? Those games were never very popular to begin with. He seems obsessed with the guy.
“When I’m trying to sleep, I care that a cat outside is making noise, so I throw a shoe at it. Malstrom is that cat.”
Then you should start an anti-Malstrom blog. Seriously! Like you say, he spends all of his time attacking the character of his so-called “game gods”, so why shouldn’t someone come along and turn the tables on him? I think you could be the one for the job. You have a witty, entertaining writing style, and more importantly you’ve managed to explain quite well all the flaws that can be found in Malstrom’s “game god” diatribes.
Just a thought.
“But yes, I’m looking forward to Other M, because it looks like Super Metroid, which I’ve always wanted a sequel to. Do I care that you don’t? No. do I care that Malstrom doesn’t? No.”
I care. Before Malstrom cranked up the old anti-Other M Hype Machine, I didn’t hear so much of a peep against Other M (other than coming from disgruntled Prime fanboys who thought Retro Studios should have exclusive rights to Metroid forevermore), but now? One cannot so much as mention game’s name without causing arguments between those who love or hate the game’s more story-based focus. What’s absurd about that is that this is clearly a game targeted squarely at the hardcore, and historically it’s always been hardcore gamers that want more story, more cut-scenes, and more emotional depth to their games. I think these people really aren’t as sore about the story as they like everyone to think they are, but are rather upset by a much pettier issue: that the game isn’t being developed by Retro Studios and doesn’t begin to even resemble their precious Prime games.
“Then you should start an anti-Malstrom blog. Seriously!”
Nah, it’s not worth it. The solution to crap on the internet is not more crap on the internet.
Metroid never struck me as a “story” series. I’ve only played 1, 2, Super, Prime 1-3, and Fusion but only in 3 and Fusion did it feel like they were trying to sell a story. That was a bit irritating, actually – since I’ve come to know the series more for its exploration, its combat based on risk-reward of different weapons, and such.
I’m not terribly interested in Other M because they’ve been selling it as a “story” game up til now. The gameplay stuff they have shown looks interesting though. The E3 trailer had a lot of running down corridors with no real ‘action’ so I’m worried again. I suppose that puts me in the camp of “would like to try it, not out in a rush to get it.”
This “Game Gods” thing only holds weight when compared to the niche of a niche of fans who obsess over game creators. Or in the small sect of devs who believe their own hype and become very outspoken about their vision of gaming (Itagaki, Cliffy B., etc). Most developers just want to make a good game, most gamers just want to play a good game.
Now I do think Malstrom has a point in one regard – that certain developers make games THEY want when they should (could?) be making games GAMERS want. As some/most devs are/were gamers, it makes sense that what they want will intersect with what gamers want. Although some of the best games I’ve ever played seem intent on bringing a focused gameplay construct that puts the player in control with a fun feature set in a designed world that makes the most engaging use of those features…a very “gamer-first” effort.
The idea that “I have this very cool game idea/set piece/story for a game and anyone who doesn’t get it is just doing it wrong, or isn’t a real gamer” is enough of a prevailing industry mindset worth exploring. There are devs with it, the press is rife with it, and even more invested gamers have it. THAT is more of an issue than this “Game God” misnomer – that there’s a culture of gamers and creators antagonistic and belittling of those who don’t acclimate to their ideal for videogame quality.
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Despite all the mindless Metroid-bashing and hypocrisy that I’ve seen since E3 09, I’ve continued reading Malstrom’s blog, mostly for his insight into the failings of 3D Mario and the state of the Zelda series, both subjects with which I share nearly identical opinions to his.
But his latest slew of anti-Other M rants did me in:
http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2010/06/19/super-metroid-2/
I can’t stand for this bullshit anymore, and responding to him through e-mail doesn’t help ease my severe annoyance with the man because what he’ll do is simply respond to it on his blog by calling me a “Sakamoto-the-game-god-worshiper” and re-iterate the same tired, flawed arguments against the game that he has repeated endlessly since E3 09.
Fuck this moron. Between his misguided Sakamoto bashing and praise of Retro Studios for resurrecting DKC (when the new DKC game actually looks like a stupid retcon of the entire series; no K. Rool, no Cranky Kong, etc.), I’ve had it with Malstrom. If Metroid: Other M manages to earn at least half the sales that Super Metroid did, Nintendo will consider it a success.
I wouldn’t want to be in Malstrom’s shoes when Other M outsells Prime 2, 3, and Prime Trilogy. He and the parade of “old-school” hypocrites that follow his inane rantings will be outed for the clueless dolts that they are.