If you want to make a fucking movie, make a fucking movie. Honestly, what the fuck are these people doing to one of the most beloved cult video game franchises ever created?!
If you want to make a fucking movie, make a fucking movie. Honestly, what the fuck are these people doing to one of the most beloved cult video game franchises ever created?!
They’re making another game of it?
I bet Nintendo would like to make a game more like Metroid Prime Hunters. No story, all action, no cutscenes.
But alas, said game was the worst selling Metroid game in the entire series.
Obviously the gamers and customers preferred an increase in storytelling and a few more cutscenes, as evidenced by the much higher sales of the Metroid Prime series.
I really wish you wouldn’t have the same sort of bipolar attitude towards the game. First you hated it because Malstrom said so, then you saw the actual game part and you cried tears of joy, and now you’re back to hating it again. It smacks of the same mood swings hardcore gamers go through when they learn a game doesn’t have DLC or won’t have pixel-shading.
Perhaps that’s the true secret of Malstrom’s internet fan revolution. They’re all as HARDCORE as the people they heavily criticize. And everybody else realized this as soon as he idolized Richard Garriot.
Perhaps they should adopt the same strategy you suggest to the way they market the game? First it was 2D hat tip to those who loved the original, then they started to show cutscenes, then it’s for “the core” or whatever that means, then it was about “the story” or some other bullshit, and now it has a two-hour movie.
Seems my “bipolar” attitude is more reactive than anything: I take what they give me and respond on it, pretty much uniformly (love the 2D, then hate it when they coat it with cutscene teen anime movie bullshit).
You’re well-spoken, so I’m just going to assume you carelessly missed all that as you typed your comment today? It happens.
Like Jeff said, they’re making another game of it, and
1) The “two hour movie” includes prerecorded gameplay that takes place between cutscenes. This isn’t Xenosaga.
2) You filed this under “Hardcore Douche Bags”, yet your nerd-rage was so tremendous here that you overlooked the sheer nonsense of what you wrote:
“If you want to me an fucking movie, make a fucking movie”
Yeah, if I want to I a fucking movie, I will make one!
And you say Jeff carelessly missed a thing or two? Finally, “teen anime bullshit” has to be most unintentionally hilarious thing I’ve ever read; this is some real good shit you’re putting out here Jack, and I hope you still remember all of it when you’re knee-deep into the most engrossing Metroid game to come out in years.
Don’t mind them, Jack. They might write well, but the content is not worth it.
Still don’t understand why they have to defend a game, nonetheless a game they do not have yet. And they call you hardcore.
Don’t mind them, Jack. They might write well, but the content is not worth it.
Spoken like a true brainwashed Malstrom Cultist.
Still don’t understand why they have to defend a game, nonetheless a game they do not have yet. And they call you hardcore.
Not so much defending the game itself as picking apart every one of Jack’s outrageous complaints and showing how asinine they are. Remember, we’re talking about a guy who read an article and watched a trailer and came away convinced that this game will be coated with “teen anime bullshit”. We’re talking about a guy who seems to think that a two hour theater mode means that this game will be a movie—and who apparently missed it when Sakamoto said that those two hours are also occupied by gameplay segments that help link the scenes together–AND—don’t miss this little detail, folks—you’d have to play through the game twice to see all the cutscenes. Which means that even if there was two whole hours (there isn’t) of “teen anime bullshit” (lol), you won’t see it all the first time you play through the game.
I’m not defending Other M. I can’t speak for Jeff, but I don’t think he is either. There’s nothing to defend it from here other than Jack’s over-the-top verbiage (see: teen anime bullshit). All we have here is an oldschool gamer crying that they put cinematics in his Metroid. Funny that fans of the original Metal Gear weren’t this bent out of shape when Hideo Kojima had the gall to do the same thing with his “beloved cult video game franchise”.
Addendum:
For additional perspective: Jack, Terebi, please see what real live Metroid fanatics (and not just people who have fond memories of the first and third game) are saying about Metroid: Other M:
http://www.metroid-database.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3400&sid=d03273f552da1781e50b5ccb3a410f91&start=150
Heh… Malstrom was mentioned two times, and now we are asked to see what “real Metroid fans” say.
Jack is far from impressed from what has been shown about Other M. What’s the problem with that? Why do you care?
Pushing a game the way you and Jeff are doing does more harm than good, you will attract mostly the people who are already interested in the game. Other people will be repelled.
I think I said this before, but I really don’t remember this much drama when Metal Gear Solid was released and the series suddenly became more about characters, cutscenes and NPC dialogue than actual gameplay.
^ Not that it looks like Metroid: Other M will be anywhere near as cinematic as the aforementioned critically-acclaimed Kojima series.
It’s that FF7 love, Jack. That’s what’s really cutting into your argument. It makes any words about “cutscenes” and any criticism of such ring hollow. FF7 had about 3 or 4 hours of cutscenes, and it didn’t even have much gameplay to show for it. and it was, quite literally, teen anime bullshit, with all the melodrama therein.
This new Metroid has slightly more or less than two hours, with some of it being in-game boss fights on auto-pilot, meaning there’s even less of the offensive cinematic material. Other than that, its classic Metroid action.
Malstrom gets mentioned here a lot, Terebi, because if I were to see an update on Malstrom’s blog, in 24 hours there’s a high probability that I would see it here within 8 hours, either in a link or through a direct quotation. And also, because when I replied here about Malstrom being caught flatfooted in a lie about an interview with the game’s director, you, yes you, Terebi, ran crying to Malstrom with an email to get his thoughts, wherein he just spun around about how his blog isn’t serious or he doesn’t spend a lot of time on it or something like that. The internet is pretty big, but it’s not that big, and I’m not ashamed at having the brainpower and reasoning skills to make the connections.
I think, what’s more repulsive to the readers of this blog and blogs like Malstrom’s, are the complete 180′s in opinions spanning little more than months or even weeks. Jack’s 180 (or 360, rather) is well noted, but Malstrom did exactly the same with Starcraft II. First it was a game destined to fail, a game split up into three parts with no LAN or spawn features. Blizzard had lost the plot. Suddenyl, as the game gets closer to release (and as Malstrom’s prediction is 100% certain to be wrong) all of a sudden he’s singing the praises of the Game Gods at Blizzard, and even a blog posts in which he argues against a hypothetical “hardcore Starcraft fan” who held the same positions about he game he had merely months ago. It smacks of political posturing, and for video games, no less. It smacks of the same shoot-from-the-hip reactionary stuff the HARDCOREs exhibit. (Speaking of which, Starcraft II has plenty of cutscenes and some kind of long story about an alien war. So I’m quizzical about his hate for cutscenes now.) I went to his blog for reasonable analysis, not to hear him whine. He’s obviously terrible at it, because I can get that from 1up or EGM or IGN, and they are professional hardcore whiners, and since they get paid for it, their content is obviously much better.
Then it dawned on me. His reasonable analysis comes from books he cites and applies to video game markets. He’s not responsible for the good content on his blog. Clayton Christensen is. He wrote the books. Malstrom IS, however, responsible for his old-school flavored hardcore-ness. And that’s as bad as what I can get from Destructoid or Kotaku.
One thing Malstrom is good at, however, is demonizing his opponents. Early on in his crusade (as evidenced by him making shit up) against Yoshio Sakamoto, he made sure that he characterized his opponents as “Game God worshipers” to ensure polar opposition as opposed to nuance. This made two sides, one with Malstrom and the righteous light of Old-school gamers, and one with those eeevil Sakamoto worshipers who treat him like a Game God, as evidenced through a few selectively picked (and edited) posts. And as the game gets closer to release, more people than not have realized their pre-cognitive rage was pretty embarrassing, and are ready to see the game on its own merits.
And that’s actually my thing with Other M. I’d like to see the game on it’s own merits instead of it being eviscerated pre-emptively for intellectually dishonest reasons. I’m not “defending” the game so much as I’m defending it’s fair shot at acceptance and would not like to see it become yet another pawn in Malstrom’s War Against Hardcores. To me, I’m digging the gameplay, I’m digging the Retro-feel. If the Cutscenes are good, good. If they are lame, oh well, I’ll skip them. If I can’t, that’s a shame.
and BTW Poochy, this is actually NOTHING compared to what happened when Nintendo tapped Retro to make Metroid and it came out a first person shooter. Go find the old IGN story from 2001. Some hardcore fans even photoshopped a protest march and changed the signs to “Save Metroid.” And even made 3D renderings of what their dream Metroid game would be like. Gee, sorta reminds you of a certain hardcore mindset, yes?
I’m pretty sure Sakamoto said the theater mode was there so that you could easily watch the cutscenes again with the perspective of having finished the game so you could see some details that you might have missed. It’s not about having to play the game twice to see all the cutscenes.
As for the Metal Gear Solid thing, there were a lot less people roaming on the internet back then which accounts for a lot. The series had not seen an entry in a long time. The original games were very hard to get into. It also made a huge leap as to how a game could be more cinematic, which made it fresh but there was a lot of backlash over how short the game was. While it wasn’t the first game with movies, it is the game that made a big push for a cinematic experience. That’s when people started going crazy over the whole games being more like movies and needing story and everything.
Most Metal Gear Solid fans have never played the original. The Solid series is what made Metal Gear popular. The Prime series is what made Metroid popular. Making Metroid more cinematic would be like turning Metal Gear Solid into a non cinematic game. It would be normal for fans to go a little nuts about it.
As for the teen anime bullshit, I think it’s a little harsh but I understand where he’s coming from. I love B-movies but watching the trailer with the soldiers was cringe worthy. If it was better, I’m sure a lot less people would be complaining. The japanese trailer wasn’t any better. The voice acting isn’t so hot either and there’s a part where it looks like an RPG scene (with the green field in the background). Oh, and when Samus narrates I get flashbacks to the Twilight movie where the main characters does the same and it’s really bad in both cases.
In the end, I think what will really make or break the game will be how much freedom you have. While it does seem like there are some areas where you are free to explore, I feel as if the game will still push you in one direction the whole time.
The FF7 argument is BS. The fact that you are even comparing Metroid to an FF game is part of the “problem”. Doesn’t matter how much he liked FF7, maybe Jack does not want to play a FF-Metroid game.
“I’d like to see the game on it’s own merits instead of it being eviscerated pre-emptively for intellectually dishonest reasons.”
Then wait until the game comes out. Do not take so seriously what a bunch of people have to say about some game they have not played.
Why should you care about what some random people say about a game that isn’t out yet and that you haven’t even participated on? An even if you had made it, that’s the kind of emotional investement “hardcore gamers” are ridiculed for. It makes them out of touch with reality.
At least when Jack thinks Other M will not be successful, he has a rational basis to say that.
What has been shown from the game gives less importance to what at first attracted older gamers like him, and seems to rely more and more on core values, which are not capable of attracting new audiences.
Without apparent means to attract new audiences or former players, how can it be a success? What is the rational basis for saying that Other M will be a success, with the information currently avaliable?
Sorry Pooch, no copyeditor here, just me, ranting.
It’s true, I’d put what I’ve seen so far, cut scene-wise, up next to what I see from a Pokemon movie. It’s kiddie fare masquerading as “serious story” and it’s just plain sad.
As for your last point, the frustrating thing is I do wish this title somehow does a 180 and is miraculously good when it lands with a thud later this month. It won’t, but I’ve been very open about eating my hat should this game surprise me. It won’t, but on the off chance it’s worthy of the Metroid name, I’ll gladly fire off a quick post acknowledging how wrong I was, and how right you and other passionate Sakamoto apologists like Jeff were all along.
Jeff:
I went to his blog for reasonable analysis, not to hear him whine.
Exactly. And if you’re anything like me, you probably come to this blog because you can’t stand the hardcore and Jack’s rants against the hardcore can be pretty damn funny. But it’s as you say: this shoot-from-the-hip reactionary stuff is classic Hardcore Gamer behavior—not really what we came here for, is it?
and BTW Poochy, this is actually NOTHING compared to what happened when Nintendo tapped Retro to make Metroid and it came out a first person shooter. Go find the old IGN story from 2001. Some hardcore fans even photoshopped a protest march and changed the signs to “Save Metroid.”
I have to confess: I was one of those hardcore fans who were worried about Prime. It ended up being a decent 3D Metroid, but to this day the oldschool Metroid fan in me can’t really accept the trilogy as 3D Metroid the way it was meant to be. Even though the games are fun, I STILL think a first-person perspective is wrong for the series and disagree with a lot of the changes Retro made to the formula. But…do you see me complaining that the Prime games were “American FPS bullshit”? I may not have like their style, but I have to admit they were good games and get on with my life, you know? Hopefully Jack and Malstrom will do the same when they finally play Other M.
That being said, however: taking the series into first person was a far more dramatic, game-changing move than adding cutscenes, even if the acting is a little poor. That the Jacks and Malstroms of this world are making as huge of a stink about this as people did about Prime really is sad.
Jonath:
As for the Metal Gear Solid thing, there were a lot less people roaming on the internet back then which accounts for a lot.
If there is anything I find truly regretful about the advent of the internet it’s that given people the ability to gripe about things they know not. Before the internet there was no “hardcore gamer”. Without the internet, imagine how Wind Waker would have been received? Without angry, testosterone-fueled 4chan posts, would Twilight Princess have been made and would Nintendo be currently stuck as they are always trying to live up to fan’s expectations (i.e., Ocarina of Time)?
Terebi:
At least when Jack thinks Other M will not be successful, he has a rational basis to say that.
What has been shown from the game gives less importance to what at first attracted older gamers like him, and seems to rely more and more on core values, which are not capable of attracting new audiences.
The funny thing is, Terebi, there’s actually PLENTY of gameplay footage of Other M to be seen…Jack just seems stuck on the cinematics, most of which seem to take place at the beginning of the game.
As for core values not being capable of attracting new audiences–when has Nintendo ever tried to capture new audiences with Metroid? No matter how Malstrom may rant about it on his blog, the original 1986 game was not even then considered a very accessible game. When I was 14 years old, soccer moms weren’t playing Metroid–I was. The kids who spent hours in arcades and mastered games like The Legend of Zelda and Super Mario Bros.–THEY were the ones who appreciated the original trilogy of Metroid games. Metroid: Other M will not be a Touch Generations title (even though Sakamoto has stated that he intends it to be)–it’s a game aimed squarely and those who have been following the main series of Metroid game: Metroid, Metroid II, Super Metroid, and Metroid Fusion. If it doesn’t reach the expanded audience, that’s not so much an Other M problem as it is a Metroid problem, is it not?
So much for having a rational basis.
“It’s true, I’d put what I’ve seen so far, cut scene-wise, up next to what I see from a Pokemon movie. It’s kiddie fare masquerading as “serious story” and it’s just plain sad.”
Pokemon? You were right on the money when you compared it to Appleseed–Ghost in the Shell would be an even more apt comparison. But Pokemon? Hilarious. Mark my words, this WILL come back to bite you in the ass, and I will be the first in line to read the aforementioned “acknowledgment” post.
“Mark my words, this WILL come back to bite you in the ass, and I will be the first in line to read the aforementioned “acknowledgment” post.”
Why do you invest so much in a game? You can, but you are giving so much of yourself to people which probably do not even care about you. You are “believing” that the game will be “good”. Why? Why not playing it first and then announce how much you liked it? Why does Jack HAVE to like it? What difference does that make to you?
By the way, if you make a statement like that, you should offer a counterpart (sugestion: trying not to be so naive next time).
When you said “success”, I assumed you were talking about sales. You acknowledged that it does not seem like it is going to attract new gamers to the series. Ok. But it is also repelling old gamers like Jack. You brought up the “real live Metroid fanatics”, which is the declining audience of the game. Under this circumstances, what is the rational behind the prediction that it will be a success?
I can see only one way for the game to be a success: after the game is launched, people will start playing it and if it is fun, people will see other people playing it, will try it and will buy it. But right now, I would not place a bet on it.
“Metroid: Other M will not be a Touch Generations title (even though Sakamoto has stated that he intends it to be)”
Do not take this personally, but then after the title is out and if it happens not to be a “Touch Generation” title, would this be a point where Sakamoto failed?
“Without the internet, imagine how Wind Waker would have been received?”
Lol, just noticed this. If WindWaker was ill-received because of the internet, what can we say about Wii Sports?
“Lol, just noticed this. If WindWaker was ill-received because of the internet, what can we say about Wii Sports?”
Not sure what you’re driving at there, T. Am I supposed to admit that that Wii Sports was a success because of word-of-mouth (a.k.a., the internet)? I suppose it was. How very LOLworthy!
“Do not take this personally, but then after the title is out and if it happens not to be a “Touch Generation” title, would this be a point where Sakamoto failed?”
Lol, just noticed this.
What kind of question is that? It would be a failure on Sakamoto’s part, but only if the game is marketed as a Touch Generations title (which will probably only be in Japan).
I like how you point to the declining sales of Metroid to support the idea that Nintendo should try to reach out to the expanded audience with Metroid. If Nintendo was so concerned with the declining sales figures of the Metroid series, why are they still making Metroid games? But here’s a better question: how exactly WOULD you reach out to the Expanded Audience with a Metroid title? Sakamoto and Team Ninja have explained time and again in interviews how they want to make a very accessible, approachable Metroid game. I don’t see why the presence of cut scenes would nullify the effectiveness of those efforts.
“The FF7 argument is BS. ”
No it’s not. There are mountains of cutscenes in that game. The comparison of Metroid to FF was based just on sheer amount of cutscenes alone. It’s intellectually dishonest to wag your finger at one game for having a modest amount when one of your favorite games has more than twice as many, and is a boring RPG to boot.It’s not about “making Metroid more like FF,” it’s just seeing if cutscenes at all are bad period, or if he’s being selective for the sake of argument.
“Why should you care about what some random people say about a game that isn’t out yet and that you haven’t even participated on?”
I don’t know, Terebi. Why DO you care?
“passionate Sakamoto apologists like Jeff”
Please don’t label me or put me into a “camp” Jack. Just because I disagree with you about this one thing doesn’t mean I hate you or I’m up Sakamoto’s butt or something. Hell I never really heard that guy’s name so much before last year when Malstrom started grinding his ax.
“At least when Jack thinks Other M will not be successful, he has a rational basis to say that.”
And I have a rational basis for Other M being successful, in that its a retro-styled Metroid game that looks like it plays great, the impressions are good both for gameplay and even the cutscenes themselves (which is entirely subjective anyway), this is a major Nintendo-published Wii game when the install base is around 75 million and it will certainly be more successful in Japan. I don’t think they liked Metroid becoming some kind of FPS, and it shows in the sales of Metroid Prime vs. the handheld games like the much maligned Metroid Fusion. Of course nobody wants to talk about the Old school Japanese gamers, except when Malstrom wants to hate on 3D Mario.
And Poochy is 100% correct about this weird misconception that Metroid was always this landmark series that broke sales records and was a “cultural phenomenon.” It’s ALWAYS been a core series. It was NEVER disruptive or new-audience generating, EVER. Mario and Zelda were those games, as were Tetris and Dr. Mario. Metroid was clearly the upstream title. The hagiography of the “Golden Era” only exists when you don’t analyze it with the same lens you analyze today.
“Lol, just noticed this. If WindWaker was ill-received because of the internet, what can we say about Wii Sports?”
Wii Sports success, as a bundled title, is tied to the success of the Wii itself. And nevertheless, despite assorted negative complaints about the graphics, the huge E3 line and the positive impressions of gameplay dominated the internet.
“But it is also repelling old gamers like Jack.”
No offense, but there’s always going to be some guys that do the whole “I, as a single hardcore gamer, hate this game, and I am assured there are others like me.” People did this for Mario 64, The Wii in General, the DS, Nintendogs, NSMBwii blah blah blah. Jack is a cool fella, to be sure. But he is A cool fella. One. Singular. You make two. It’s the same false number fallacy HARDCOREs fall into all the time. I can’t speak for others or even how Other M will do in the market, but just because two guys on the internet whine, doesn’t do diddly-dick (and it didn’t work for Wii or Wii Sports or anything that’s successful).
I just can’t take the mood swings. Even Malstrom dedicated a blog entry on hardcore mood swings (before exhibiting one himself on Starcraft II.) I don’t mind criticism, but it has to be in reasonable fashion. Not like
“OMG I hate this! Sakamoto is a Game God! Or his fans are! Or whatever Malstrom’s definition is today!”
“OMG I LOVE THIS GAME IT’S ALL RETRO!”
“WHAT?! Cutscenes?! Cutscenes in a game where I arbitrarily won’t accept them?! OUTRAGE! DOUCHEBAGS! GAME GODS!”
I mean it’s fine if that’s your true opinion, and all the power to ya. But don’t expect anybody to take it seriously when it shifts positions all the time for spurious reasons.
“It’s intellectually dishonest to wag your finger at one game for having a modest amount when one of your favorite games has more than twice as many”
I really like Tuna, but I don’t want any of it on my ice-cream.
“I don’t know, Terebi. Why DO you care?”
Nice way to NOT respond =) But I will, if you do not mind. I don’t care. I’ve already said it, I’m not a Metroid fan, and I’m not into the game. My main interest in this discussion is people like you and Poochy who goes to great lenghts to praise games that you have not played and have not participated, when the only thing you know about the game is what the company puts out.
Taking into account the things you write, you seem to be an intelligent person. But you are being played. Why do you let them play you? Why these so-called “hardcores” let the people on these companies play them? Some really believe what the companies say, some just enjoy the hype masturbation. I would say you believe the team, you believe that they will deliever a game you will profoundly enjoy.
But why write sizable amounts of text because someone took the “wrong turn” (e.g., not liking Other M) on what you interpret as a mood swing?
I can imagine a couple of cases. But there is one that I see looming since the beginning. You like the game. And you want to see it being a success, that would be enjoyable to you. If you see Jack downplaying the game and feel that by saying those things that could affect the success of the game, it could make you unconfortable enough to write all the things you have written.
How could Jack affect the success of Other M? Marketing can only get you so far. In games it would be the first weeks, there are other games to market. Word-of-mouth is important for a game to keep selling. You and Poochy agree with this, and connected word-of-mouth to the internet.
“And nevertheless, despite assorted negative complaints about the graphics, the huge E3 line and the positive impressions of gameplay dominated the internet.”
“Without the internet, imagine how Wind Waker would have been received?”
“because of word-of-mouth (a.k.a., the internet)”
Now, what’s the problem with this? The thing is, word-of-mouth is not the internet (that is, unless you are being played). Word-of-mouth is not what some guys say on a magazine or forum, or what some company puts on its website. Word-of-mouth is what people you KNOW say to you, and it is what you SEE for yourself in the field. It was not the internet who launched Wii Sports. It was people seeing something that interested them at their friends’ house or in some supermarket or public event.
This is how I see it. And if it is something like this, I wouldn’t be surprised if most of the things described here where done unconsciously.
Bottom-line: If the game is good, it will stand for itself so why bother with what you consider as “premature and extreme criticism of a game that’s not even out yet”. Whatever Jack says here will not influence significantly the success of the game. When the game comes out you will probably enjoy it, Jack probably won’t and the Earth will continue to spin, albeit slower.